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RE: 7.2 A1 - Pages Hidden From Navigation Still Show In Navigation Menu Bui
Expected
When page is hidden from "navigation" it shouldn't be showing as selectable in the Navigation Menu Builder.
When page is hidden from "navigation" it shouldn't be showing as selectable in the Navigation Menu Builder.
I disagree.
Let's say, I want to create multiple menus. A top navigation, a main navigation, a footer navigation, ... Since all pages are added to the default tree, I need the option to hide pages from there. Otherwise, all pages will be shown there. Which I do not want.
But I want to use them in my special navigations, so I need to be able to add hidden pages and especially their child pages there. So, I guess, the only way to achieve this with the current concept is to just hide them in the default tree.
Let's say, I want to create multiple menus. A top navigation, a main navigation, a footer navigation, ... Since all pages are added to the default tree, I need the option to hide pages from there. Otherwise, all pages will be shown there. Which I do not want.
But I want to use them in my special navigations, so I need to be able to add hidden pages and especially their child pages there. So, I guess, the only way to achieve this with the current concept is to just hide them in the default tree.
The feature is working correctly because the page is hidden from navigation menus even if you add them to a navigation menu. It doesn't make sense that they should be availble in the navigation builder. Why would you need to see pages that were marked hidden from navigation menus unless you were trying to build a navigation menu live and didn't want to show those pages to users until you had them in the right place?
"default tree" being the page heirachy? If pages are hidden from miller columns (page heirachy) they become zombies right?
"default tree" being the page heirachy? If pages are hidden from miller columns (page heirachy) they become zombies right?
I meant the "Public page hierarchy". All pages which are added to MC are also added to that hierarchy and that hierarchy is used as the default menu. It is essentially the tree in the MC.
When you select the "Public page hierarchy" in a navigation portlet, the page is not shown.
If you add the page to another new navigation menu und select it in a a navigation portlet, the page is shown. I tested that and it works for me.
I believe, it is the same for you. In your video, in the navigation portlet in the sidebar it is shown. I suspect, you have configured the main nav to show the public page hierarchy (or not changed it at all, since it is default).
When you select the "Public page hierarchy" in a navigation portlet, the page is not shown.
If you add the page to another new navigation menu und select it in a a navigation portlet, the page is shown. I tested that and it works for me.
I believe, it is the same for you. In your video, in the navigation portlet in the sidebar it is shown. I suspect, you have configured the main nav to show the public page hierarchy (or not changed it at all, since it is default).
I can't even with navigation anymore, such a mess. That's not really the issue I was highlighting.
When manually building a navigation menu there are items showing in the builder (the tree) that have been hidden from navigation.
The actual site visitor facing side of this works fine but the site admin is seeing in that page selector pages which have been marked as hidden.
Expected:
When a page has been marked hide from navigation it shouldn't be showing in the page selector for manually adding to any navigation menus.
When manually building a navigation menu there are items showing in the builder (the tree) that have been hidden from navigation.
The actual site visitor facing side of this works fine but the site admin is seeing in that page selector pages which have been marked as hidden.
Expected:
When a page has been marked hide from navigation it shouldn't be showing in the page selector for manually adding to any navigation menus.
I think you still misunderstand: There is NO HIDE FROM NAVIGATION!! The option is called "Show in Public Pages Hierarchy Menu". The option is not "Show in navigation menus". The setting only specifies if the page is shown in the "Public Pages Hierarchy". Nothing more.
Since all pages are automatically added to that menu, I need an option to hide it there. To add it to another menu should still be possible. It is my free choice to add it there. If I do not want it in some other menu, I simply don't add it.
Since all pages are automatically added to that menu, I need an option to hide it there. To add it to another menu should still be possible. It is my free choice to add it there. If I do not want it in some other menu, I simply don't add it.
Christoph RabelSince all pages are automatically added to that menu, I need an option to hide it there. To add it to another menu should still be possible. It is my free choice to add it there. If I do not want it in some other menu, I simply don't add it.How would this be solved though because the feature was "hide from navigation" and you can't just suddenly switch that up on users who have been hiding from navigation for 3 years and say oh now it means something completly different, you can hide it from navigation but you can still have it in a navigation menu. You're able to choose which navigation menus you want the page to display in and you can delete pages from navigation menus that you don't want there.
Pages are no longer default added to navigation menus you create unless you check that checkbox. What doesn't make sense to me is why would a user want to add a page to a navigation menu that was marked as being hidden from navigation?
7.0 users don't know what "Page Hierarchy" means a fixpack could have changed "Navigation" to "Hierarchy" BEFORE 7.1 was ever unleashed, I know the difference but I approach this not from my POV.
Lee JordanIn 7.0 there was just one navigation menu. One. And you had the option to hide it there.
How would this be solved though because the feature was "hide from navigation" and you can't just suddenly switch that up on users who have been hiding from navigation for 3 years and say oh now it means something completly different, you can hide it from navigation but you can still have it in a navigation menu. You're able to choose which navigation menus you want the page to display in and you can delete pages from navigation menus that you don't want there.
Let's say, you create no new navigation menus at all, you completely ignore that in control panel. You just add pages to MC. You still get one navigation, out of the box, the public page hierarchy.
In that case, nothing changes for you. Ok, the wording has changed, it is "Show" now instead of hide. But essentially it is the same flag. When you use that public page hierarchy in a navigation portlet or in main nav in the theme, pages and all pages below that are hidden.
Lee Jordan
Pages are no longer default added to navigation menus you create unless you check that checkbox.
That's incorrect. They are added to the default navigation menu. It is kinda hidden, but it is there.
Lee Jordan
What doesn't make sense to me is why would a user want to add a page to a navigation menu that was marked as being hidden from navigation?
Because it is e.g. a top nav. Or a navigation in a footer (Imprint, privacy policy, ...).
You don't want to have it in the main navigation, but you want to place a navigation somewhere, where you can navigate through those pages.
Nope our users hide from navigation a lot ... it's there in 7.0.
Would an easy solution to this be to have TWO toggles ... restore the 7.0 wholesale "hide from public pages heiracy" and allow the toggle to hide from "navigation menus".
So both use cases can be met?
I think there has been a miscalculation around navigation from 7.0 to 7.1 which is now leading to this thinking that there never was a hide from navigation feature. The feature was removed in 7.1 and I had asked for it to be restored for 7.2. It hasn't been restored correctly and is more confusing than it ever was in 7.0 (the tooltip says something different to the label).
Jorge ... What happens in an upgrade siutation on this? Currently to hide from navigation users toggle this to be "on" (it's defaulted off). Now in 7.2 it's defaulted "on" and to hide users have to toggle it off. Confusion assured because when it's blue in 7.0 it hides the page from navigation, which is now different in 7.2.
Even the word "navigation" has lost its clarity.
Can someone at Liferay spin up 7.0?
Would an easy solution to this be to have TWO toggles ... restore the 7.0 wholesale "hide from public pages heiracy" and allow the toggle to hide from "navigation menus".
So both use cases can be met?
I think there has been a miscalculation around navigation from 7.0 to 7.1 which is now leading to this thinking that there never was a hide from navigation feature. The feature was removed in 7.1 and I had asked for it to be restored for 7.2. It hasn't been restored correctly and is more confusing than it ever was in 7.0 (the tooltip says something different to the label).
Jorge ... What happens in an upgrade siutation on this? Currently to hide from navigation users toggle this to be "on" (it's defaulted off). Now in 7.2 it's defaulted "on" and to hide users have to toggle it off. Confusion assured because when it's blue in 7.0 it hides the page from navigation, which is now different in 7.2.
Even the word "navigation" has lost its clarity.
Can someone at Liferay spin up 7.0?
Attachments:
Lee JordanWould an easy solution to this be to have TWO toggles ... restore the 7.0 wholesale "hide from public pages heiracy" and allow the toggle to hide from "navigation menus".Why would I need the a hide from navigation menus option? I simply don't add it to a navigation menu. No need to hide it. It would be a redundant switch.
It's not a redundant feature ... we have 100's of site admins and this feature is used a lot. I don't speak of how I personally use the portal, I personally don't hide things from navigation but our users do. Particulary large sites with hundreds of pages, it's not feasible to show every page in the navigation ... and in 7.0 this was the only method.
The expectation here is that a page hidden from navigation can't appear in navigation menus! It would be meaningless otherwise.
If we have that method back users can continue while we gently change their behaviour and while I gently educate them on what navigation now is (and really custom navigation is the better term). I can't just go oh well you're out of luck guys this is the way it is now sorry you can't hide from navigation any more. I can but my perspective is focused on what they need from the portal not what I need.
The expectation here is that a page hidden from navigation can't appear in navigation menus! It would be meaningless otherwise.
If we have that method back users can continue while we gently change their behaviour and while I gently educate them on what navigation now is (and really custom navigation is the better term). I can't just go oh well you're out of luck guys this is the way it is now sorry you can't hide from navigation any more. I can but my perspective is focused on what they need from the portal not what I need.
Ok. I am at a loss. I obviously can't explain it to you. Maybe somebody else wants to try.
The feature you want is simply not missing. Your site admins can do exactly the same thing in regard to page visibility in 7.2 as in 7.0.
The feature you want is simply not missing. Your site admins can do exactly the same thing in regard to page visibility in 7.2 as in 7.0.
That's not it.
I'm not saying it doesn't work I'm saying hidden pages are shown in the page selector in the navigation menu builder and that the toggle is backwards to how it was and is more confusing to users that hiding from navigation doesn't hide it from navigation ... the hidden page is clearly showing up in the page selector when building navigation menus ...
The feature has been changed from "hide from navigation" to "show in navigation" and the page selector is ignoring this toggle.
I'm not saying it doesn't work I'm saying hidden pages are shown in the page selector in the navigation menu builder and that the toggle is backwards to how it was and is more confusing to users that hiding from navigation doesn't hide it from navigation ... the hidden page is clearly showing up in the page selector when building navigation menus ...
The feature has been changed from "hide from navigation" to "show in navigation" and the page selector is ignoring this toggle.
Christoph Rabel exactly the same thingYes yes they can, I totally agree, I'm not misunderstanding, but it's backwards a semantic error has occured when restoring the feature.
Ok forget everything ... Your light switch at home. At first I just take it away from you and you complain. I say fair enough and I come out to fix it.
I come in and turn it upside down. Are you happy about this? The light still works. One step further, I put the switch in backwards and change the position of it on the wall panel ... Now it opperates the wrong light. You haven't lost functionality the other switch is what you must get used to ... but you're not happy with the work I did. I tell you to stop complaining because your light still works and that's the way it is now.
Yeah I wouldn't get your business again.
Anyways the hidden page is still visible when creating navigation menus!!
Lee Jordan Yes yes they can, I totally agree, I'm not misunderstanding, but it's backwards a semantic error has occured when restoring the feature. ...
Please note, I just want to say that the implementation and the wording is correct. I agree, it is not a simple relationship.
Lee Jordan
Anyways the hidden page is still visible when creating navigation menus!!
I have an idea, you can try your behavior out:
Please install Liferay 7.1 CE GA3 (maybe GA2). The behavior there is as you want it. Test it:
Main 1, Main 2, "Hidden Footer Nav"
Place some pages, e.g. Imprint and Privacy policy below the "Hidden Footer nav" page. And now please create a "Footer nav menu" and show the Imprint and Privacy policy there ...
Hey guys,
Thanks Lee for bringing this up. I can definitely see the source of confusion and how we need to fix it. In case it helps, with the changes in 7.2 (which were also backported to 7.1, BTW) the main navigation menu is the page hierarchy just like it has always been. That's why we added back the "Hidden" checkbox but reversed for usability and consistency reasons. As Christoph was saying (Thanks Christoph!), its behaviour is the same as it's always been, even if the wording is reversed.
The Navigation menus are now an auxiliary tool, which doesn't have to be used, but is available for sites that have multiple menus. It's possible to add any page to them, even those that are not being shown in the menu that is automatically derived from the Pages Hierarchy.
I do want to revisit the relationships of navigation menus and the page hierarchy for 7.3, so I'll make sure to include both of you guys in the conversation when that happens.
Thanks Lee for bringing this up. I can definitely see the source of confusion and how we need to fix it. In case it helps, with the changes in 7.2 (which were also backported to 7.1, BTW) the main navigation menu is the page hierarchy just like it has always been. That's why we added back the "Hidden" checkbox but reversed for usability and consistency reasons. As Christoph was saying (Thanks Christoph!), its behaviour is the same as it's always been, even if the wording is reversed.
The Navigation menus are now an auxiliary tool, which doesn't have to be used, but is available for sites that have multiple menus. It's possible to add any page to them, even those that are not being shown in the menu that is automatically derived from the Pages Hierarchy.
I do want to revisit the relationships of navigation menus and the page hierarchy for 7.3, so I'll make sure to include both of you guys in the conversation when that happens.
Thank you Jorge.
With careful consideration to existing 7.0 users can the toggle be flipped please and the wording changed back to hide not "show".
I'm not giving this feedback for personal reasons ... We support hundreds of site admIns and the less confusion that can come from an upgrade the better.
Sure flip it in Liferay 8.0 but this is still a 7 version and you must consider user experience if the product still is monikered with XP.
With careful consideration to existing 7.0 users can the toggle be flipped please and the wording changed back to hide not "show".
I'm not giving this feedback for personal reasons ... We support hundreds of site admIns and the less confusion that can come from an upgrade the better.
Sure flip it in Liferay 8.0 but this is still a 7 version and you must consider user experience if the product still is monikered with XP.
Ok, I'll bring it up to Juan and we'll discuss it.
I'm a bit concerned that this was already backported to 7.1 though, but it can be solved.
I'm a bit concerned that this was already backported to 7.1 though, but it can be solved.
I discussed it with Juan and we agreed to change the label back to the "Hidden" form. See LPS-92703 for details and to track progress.
Thanks guys!
Thanks guys!
We just committed this change. It missed the first Beta build, but it will be available in the next build.
I've attached a couple of screenshots of how it will look like (subject to potential changes in the review process)
I've attached a couple of screenshots of how it will look like (subject to potential changes in the review process)
Awesome! Thank you so much Jorge.
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